On the heals of a conversation about record-store clerks and beer zealots, Building International Coalitions Through Beer and Pavement gives us:
“(T)en things geeks, nerds, snobs, and connoisseurs do that makes it hard to take their advice and opinions on beer and indie rock seriously.’ (The link, in case you hadn’t figured it out.)
I can’t pick which one I like best, I do know the conclusion really closes the deal.
Still, the backlash directed at beer nerds and indie geeks seems to resemble anti-intellectualism or anti-elitism that runs rampant through our political climate at the moment. These experts are valuable parts of our communities. They can connect dots and provide insight when it’s lacking. The trick is to not let that abundance of knowledge overwhelm or drown out enjoyment.
Well put, ZJE.
Worst. Insights. Ever. 😉
Thanks for the shout-out! And Sid, what do you have to offer to the discussion? Why so hyperbolic?
@Zac: It’s a Simpson’s Comic Book Guy phrase. “Worst. XXXX. Ever.” Just a bit of nerd/geek fun. Too subtle?
Well, that one went over my head and below my feet. Well done. I’ll go crawl back into my angry internet hole…
Maybe I’m betraying my own insecurities, but the theme seems to be that the geek is constantly finding ways to make it clear he is better than me, or his experiences are or whatever. I don’t think it is anti-elitism on my part not to like him.
Sid – Does it speak well or ill of me that ‘got it’ immediately?
If a geek/nerd/whatever is being rude, it’s fine to not like them or ignore their opinions. The problem is when we dismiss an expert for no other reason than they are an expert and know more than we do. In this way, the record store clerk or cicerone provides a service by sharing his knowledge, keeping the rest of us informed.
Stan, I think it speaks well of you as you actually have a sense of humor. Mine seems to be missing. 😉
I’ve seen people behave like this in beer forums. Fora? Forums. I’ve never seen people behave like that at a bar.
Zac, I think the disconnect is that the article (is it your article?) spent the bulk of the space on people being jerks, and then devotes a little bit of space on the end suggesting that the jerks are experts. I guess I’m with those who don’t see dismissing jerks as being anti-elitist or anti-intellectual. If Person X has things to bring to a community that will benefit the community, it’s usually better if it’s done in such a way that suggests X respects the community and those who compose it. No one dislikes the folks described in the article because they’re smart — they dislike them because the folks described are rude and dismissive of others’ opinions and tastes.
Bill, that makes perfect sense. However, I think because a fair number of experts can be condescending or act like jerks, we often write off the good, knowledgeable ones before they even begin to speak. Part of the reason for that is our own insecurities. Also, if you notice, I point at myself as being one of the know-it-alls. I get that sometimes what I say about beer or music can be preachy, but there is usually an intent to inform and promote the things about which I feel passion.
The point was to identify the things we say as beer and music aficionados that turn people off. Then, we’re more likely to be heard, even understood.
@Stan: Culture is culture… 😎
“3. Picking apart every last detail until enjoyment is impossible.”
The funny thing about this statement is that there are so many who seem just to be looking for the fault in the beer they’re drinking. While I will point out something obviously faulty (through bad brewing or brewing care or just waay off from style), more often than not I’m enjoying what’s in my glass.
I’m sure the usual BeerAdvocate suspects look at my average B+ review rating and think I’m too soft, even >gasp< un-knowledgeable. Then again, I've read a few who have shifted the scales to try to tell us anything below an A is sub-par.
Steve, I don’t think you’re too soft. Instead, I suspect you choose your beers wisely. I don’t buy music or beer that doesn’t interest me. So, I often enjoy the experience. I grow weary of those constantly looking for something wrong.
In the record-shop clerk discussion, I pointed out that the problem is not individuals, but a culture. It is precisely the beer geeks who have created this culture.
In many ways, I see this culture in religious terms: their god is Michael Jackson, the scriptures are his books and articles, all of the commandments are related to “beer style”, etc. Like in other religions, there are fanatics who say or do fanatical things in support of their religion (i.e., beer geeks).
And, finally, like religion, it is a belief system, not a fact system. To call beer geeks “experts” simply reveals how little the author knows about beer.
So long as this corrupt culture survives, micro-brewed beers (good or bad) will remain micro-sold beers.
Sid, I don’t know why you were being so kind 😉
“I see this culture in religious terms: their god is Michael Jackson,”
If you follow Beer Advocate (Land of The Geeks) at all, you’ll find that there is a big majority who have no idea who Jackson is. Sad, but true. I have the feeling that if they did follow him more, read more of his work, they might be a little more enlightened than they really are — after all, even Jackson didn’t think hops were the main ingredient in beer.
You’re right. I know nothing about beer. Why all this talk about the self-proclaimed king of pop?
Seriously, Mike. I grow tired or the idea that only a few chosen ones are allowed to be experts in beer. I hang out with a ton of beer geeks and they know quite a lot. In the context of the greater public, they are the experts. I’ve even taught a thing or two to my friend who has his cicerone certification. While I would never suggest that I know more than he does about beer, I know an awful lot just from reading blogs and books on the subject as well as my own experiences consuming and brewing my own beer.
Questioning how much I know about beer just proves my point.
“Questioning how much I know about beer just proves my point.” Which point is that?
Let’s try a little experiment, shall we? Here’s an article that ran in the Washington Post, a reputable publication, in my view, and I would assume your’s as well: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/beer-belgiums-upstart-innovators/2011/07/07/gIQAjDCiAI_story.html
Pay particular attention to the second paragraph of that article. See if you can spot something (factual) that is incorrect.
You also wrote “I know an awful lot just from reading blogs…” Could you name a couple of blogs that you feel have taught you a lot about beer?
Mike, you’re the sort of person that keeps others from enjoying their beer. What would it prove if I could point out that a quadrupel shouldn’t feature “roasted-coffee notes common in American stouts?” In fact, I’m pretty sure that’s not what I’ve tasted the few times I’ve enjoyed Pannepot, but who’s to say that he’s wrong? Maybe that’s what the author tasted. I don’t give a shit. I’m glad he chose a great beer and wrote about it in a high-profile newspaper. Isn’t it good enough that he gives De Struise Brouwers some exposure?
As far as the source, I don’t depend on mainstream papers to tell me anything about beer. They’re rarely accurate. And I have other issues with WP, but that’s another discussion for another time.
And maybe I’m wrong. Who cares? Let’s talk about beer. Let’s talk about why we enjoy it. Why the quiz? Are you preparing to impress everyone with your vast knowledge on the subject? Maybe you should write your own blog. I might even read it.
Blogs I read? There isn’t enough space to list all the beer blogs in my Google Reader. Obviously, I read this one, but I tend to avoid the comments due to certain blowhards. I also read The Mad Fermentationist, Beer & Whiskey Bros, A Good Beer Blog, It’s a Fucking Beer!…and many, many more, but I don’t read them to prove that I know more than the next guy. I read them because I love beer and love to read blogs by people who also love beer.
“I don’t depend on mainstream papers to tell me anything about beer. They’re rarely accurate.”
Ain’t that the truth.
First, a quick reminder to remain civil in the comments. It’s tricky when you have people from different countries, different beer cultures making guesses about each other.
Second, I think newspaper coverage of beer is improving. In fact, Greg Kitsock has a regular gig in the Washington Post and his stories as well researched, educational, all the things newspapers are supposed to do right. Also, closer to home, Evan Benn’s work illustrates what happens when somebody trained in journalism gets enthusiastic about learning about something and telling readers what he learns. A lot of other people learn along with him.
Sorry, Stan. I just didn’t like what was being implied by quizzing me. Condescension is condescension, no matter the culture. The fact is that I know enough about beer to join the conversation. I may not know as much as the next guy, but I know enough. Besides, isn’t that the point? Isn’t it better to welcome all perspectives and learn from each other as opposed to tearing people down? I love Benn’s column and will have to check out Kitsock. Thanks.
Now, I should get back to work and a sick toddler.
Zac, I don’t know you or your background, and I won’t make any assumptions. My own background is that I was brought up by German parents (yes, my parents) in New York and, for the last 13 or so years have lived in Amsterdam. Most of what I read about beer is published here and not very much of it is in English, other than the odd book from CAMRA.
There is a HUGE difference between how beer is seen in the US and here. In fact, I probably know less about beer than you do, but I’ll wager that the little I know is more accurate than the lot you know about beer history and the beer situation in Europe.
The beer geek culture, it seems to me, is incestuous. Beer bloggers read mostly other beer bloggers, books about beer often use the same flawed sources (the BJCP, the BA, etc.), etc. This is why the beer geek culture is mostly wrong – they don’t look outside their tainted circle for information. What is especially bizarre about geeks is not that they won’t or can’t read German or Dutch sources, it’s that they won’t even look at British sources which are in (almost) the same language!
And, btw, lines like “Mike, you’re the sort of person that keeps others…” drive me crazy! Don’t you know that it should be “Mike, you’re the sort of person _WHO_ keeps others…”
Really? You stooped to grammatical errors? I guess I passed your beer quiz but failed the grammar one.
Mike, it’s a good thing you don’t make assumptions such as how little I know about beer, think the WP is a reputable news source, know little about how beer is viewed in Europe, etc. The only issue I’ve had with your comments is that you disregard my knowledge about beer based solely on your disagreement over my use of the word “expert.”
For the most part, we agree that beer geek culture shuts others out. However, you see it as a case of ignorance and I see it as a problem of exclusion.
Have you even read my blog? It’s about my passion for craft beer and indie rock. I look for connections between the two worlds for greater meaning. I look at blogging as part of a conversation. I can get certain kinds of information from Stan and others from Pitchfork. I like to discuss everything in between. If beer blogging is too incestuous, then maybe your should throw your hat in the ring and teach us.
Eff. I’ve spent too much time on this already.
One quick note (since I’ve also got other work to do), which might be a stretch to fit into the back-and-forth here, but . . .
Zac is passionate about music, as we are in our house. But not the same “style” of music. There likely are artists, OK I’m guessing, we both enjoy. Just as there are individual beers we’d both enjoy and beers one of us likes and the other doesn’t. I have never heard Claque (a music group). He may never have had a particular Bavarian wheat beer. But I think we could find the context to discuss these over beer. Similar conversations will work better for anyone if they peruse that list of 10 and ask themselves if they are falling into bad habits that exclude others from contributing.
Stoop to grammatical errors? On the contrary, good knowledge of your own language will get you a lot further in life than knowing the definition of wort.
Frankly, after you seemed to take offense at my experiment, I didn’t really pay attention. The correct answer, by the way, was: “…a quadrupel, a traditional Belgian abbey ale…”
I don’t read your blog, but I read the post Stan linked to.
Trust me, most of what geeks will tell you about beer history or stories about beer in Germany/Belgium/the UK/wherever are false. With all the other flaws you found in their behaviour, this shouldn’t come as a great shock.
“I think newspaper coverage of beer is improving.”
Stan, I thought the same thing when the Chicago Tribune started running some beer articles here and there. Unfortunately, the balance between true knowledge and the usual myths we see all the time is frustrating. Maybe the Trib can pick up Kitscock or Benn.
Fair enough, Mike. You win. However, let it be known that you fall under numbers 1, 3, and 4…plus one more I haven’t determined yet.
BTW, I missed it because I was miffed over Mike’s condescension (or at least my perception of his tone), but he’s wrong about the grammar point. “of person” was prepositional, so “that” was modifying “sort” not “person.” In other words, “Mike, you’re the sort of person _WHO_ keeps others…” is incorrect and “that” is the correct word in this instance.
Zac, I hope you understand beer better than you do grammar. It’s not the part of speech, it’s the fact that the subject “person” takes a who. If you want to use “that” then you need to change the subject to something inanimate, like rock or brewery.
Well, Chaucer was cool with it. The issue is way more gray than you seem to think it is. I was dehumanizing “the sort of human,” hence “that” is still acceptable. Besides, this is a comment thread, not a dissertation. Even if that were the case, the English language is an evolving thing and you should really get over yourself.
Perhaps point 11 could be “never letting an argument end”! Agree to disagree. Accept that nothing personal was originally meant by either party. Resolve to buy each other a beer if ever you meet. Assume you have lots in common to talk about and share. Give yourselves a three-comment limit — if ever something isn’t resolved in three comments, it won’t be — you’ll just get angrier.
Bill. Word. Make that “the last word.”
I’m not stoking the fire here. I apologize hijacking this thread. As Bill suggested, I added an eleventh point to my list. Moving on…
Thanks, Zac. A good list just got better. I might have to print it out and carry it around in my pocket.